Drum Recording Dissertation - Overheads And Phase Coherency

[weedywet]

No
I do it both ways. depends on the stands.

[unitymusic]

D93C1B32-62D7-4857-9F44-24228E396EF7.jpegHere’s another one of my setups someone posted today

Was this one of your 5 mic setups? Are those 87's as the L/R mics?

[weedywet]

Those are U67s

And yes. There is an sm7 in the bass drum under the blanket and a km84 on the snare which is hard to see from that angle. (You can see it’s stand)

In this case there are two STC 4038s out in the room.
Spaced apart wide of the kit and pointing down at the floor so the dead side of the figure of 8 pattern is ‘pointed’ at the kit.
That way they pick up almost entirely the ambience (from ceiling and floor) without any direct signal.
It’s a good trick in a not terribly live room.

[Cirrus]

this has compression on the sub group:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWbRtpIRuFw

this has the room miss compressed, but not the group.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv1MTT4NofE

I know it's not really the point of the thread, but I really love that Dave Hause track, hadn't come across him before. The mix is great too - really natural, mellow top end that still has enough clarity to stay lively. I wish I could do that.

And something I only recently realised (Both the Dave Hause and the Patty Smyth tracks are good examples of this, I think, in different ways) is just how important the rooms are in opening out the top end of the kit.

[unitymusic]

Those are U67s

And yes. There is an sm7 in the bass drum under the blanket and a km84 on the snare which is hard to see from that angle. (You can see it’s stand)

In this case there are two STC 4038s out in the room.
Spaced apart wide of the kit and pointing down at the floor so the dead side of the figure of 8 pattern is ‘pointed’ at the kit.
That way they pick up almost entirely the ambience (from ceiling and floor) without any direct signal.
It’s a good trick in a not terribly live room.

Thanks. That's a nice array of mics, I bet the recording sounds great. Let us know when it is released, I doubt I'm the only one who would be interested in hearing it.

I'm just curious about why you like the sm7 for a kick mic? I don't think this is the first time I've seen you post about using one in this sort of setup, is that a go-to for you in that application?

[weedywet]

I always like either an SM7 or an RE20... and they're fairly interchangeable in the bass drum for me, depending on what's available.
The SM7 is a tiny bit clicky-er, but it's easy to make them do the same things with EQ.

[unitymusic]

Interesting. One last question: do you end up using the sm7 fairly low in the mix? I could see it adding a tiny bit of edge and punch to a kick in an otherwise nice roomy drum sound, but I don't think I've actually used one in that application, so maybe I should just try it. I've just never been super impressed by that mic, and I'm kind of surprised that you like it.

[nobby]

I'm guessing you can use more of the kick mic in the mix if you're using a tunnel, which Weedy seems to favor, and which I wish I'd used pretty much whenever I didn't.

Without the tunnel, you already have a lot of kick in the room mic(s), FOK, etc. and you can't add a lot of kick mic without the kick drum overwhelming the drums mix.

[Cirrus]

... you can't add a lot of kick mic without the kick drum overwhelming the drums mix.

And, at that point, you sidechain the mixbus comp to the kick track with 0 attack and 1/4 note release, call it dance music and laugh all the way to the bank.

[weedywet]

I think there's actually quite a lot of the bass drum mic in the mixes.
Just perhaps not as much as the current (loudest thing in the world) trend on most records.

Sometimes you want the bass drum to be 'roomy' like the rest of the kit, in which case i'm more likely to leave it uncovered. But often I find I want it to remain closer sounding which is why the blanketing.

this Dave Hause track with a very Bonham groove (read as: rip off) has the bass drum unblanketed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWbRtpIRuFw

[nobby]

I think there's actually quite a lot of the bass drum mic in the mixes.
Just perhaps not as much as the current (loudest thing in the world) trend on most records.

Sometimes you want the bass drum to be 'roomy' like the rest of the kit, in which case i'm more likely to leave it uncovered. But often I find I want it to remain closer sounding which is why the blanketing.

this Dave Hause track with a very Bonham groove (read as: rip off) has the bass drum unblanketed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWbRtpIRuFw

That ^^ sounds good for a "roomy" kick drum sound and for my purposes would be quite acceptable if I can't re-record the drums for a closer sound.

To try to achieve a similar effect what I've done is to low pass the inside kick drum at about 100 Hz, compress it heavily (about 8 dB GR) and mix that in with the kit. That seems to help.

[unitymusic]

I think there's actually quite a lot of the bass drum mic in the mixes.
Just perhaps not as much as the current (loudest thing in the world) trend on most records.

Sometimes you want the bass drum to be 'roomy' like the rest of the kit, in which case i'm more likely to leave it uncovered. But often I find I want it to remain closer sounding which is why the blanketing.

this Dave Hause track with a very Bonham groove (read as: rip off) has the bass drum unblanketed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWbRtpIRuFw

That sounds good, the snare seems a little wide, which sounds kind of weird to me for a moment if I pay attention to that, but I like it. The kick sounds punchy and present without being overbearing, and it kind of sounds like there is less low end in there than I would have expected.

I'm assuming the sm7 is basically on or in the kick drum? Do you ever use an LDC a little further back as a FOK mic with or instead of that?

[Cirrus]

I always thought it was strange that the Beta 52, when you unscrew the huge metal grill front, just basically looks like a '57 capsule sticking out into air.

And the SM7, when you take the foam off and look through the basket... just looks like a '57 capsule sticking out into the air.

One of them is a great all-rounder that can be used for a lot of things. Then there's the blue monstrosity, which has a built in 10db boost at 4k, and is 20(!) dB down by 10k.

[nobby]

There was some talk that supposedly Terry Manning came up with the idea of removing the xformer from an SM57.

They say (link below) it cuts -10 dB of output but sounds better.

"It sounds more like an SM7 to me, which I now suspect may be the same basic mic with a better transformer."

I've never tried it, myself. If I need a microphone project to keep me busy I can get the kit to replace the foam in an RE-20

https://tapeop.com/tutorials/52/sm-57-mod/

[weedywet]

...Do you ever use an LDC a little further back as a FOK mic with or instead of that?

no, i almost never find more than one mic useful, and I prefer the re20/sm7 in that application.

[John Eppstein]

There was some talk that supposedly Terry Manning came up with the idea of removing the xformer from an SM57.

They say (link below) it cuts -10 dB of output but sounds better.

"It sounds more like an SM7 to me, which I now suspect may be the same basic mic with a better transformer."

I've never tried it, myself. If I need a microphone project to keep me busy I can get the kit to replace the foam in an RE-20

https://tapeop.com/tutorials/52/sm-57-mod/

<CHUCKLE> I'll have to ask Terry when he came up with that idea - i notice the article is dated 2006 but I'd guess that he came up with it much earlier.

The thing is, the transformerless 57 trick has been floating around ther SF Bay Area for a LONG time. I'm hesitant to say that it's my invention, but I came up with it as part of converting HiZ only Unidyne IIIs to work with LowZ PA inputs back in the late '70s when I was hitting flea markets for cheap used mics. There may have been others doing a similar thing around that time but I don't know - I just came up with it as a way of repurposing 57 style mics that were otherwise useless on a real PA - I was working for an early punk club that had a lot of mic breakage and zero mic budget. I did a lot of surgery on Shure mics back then and noticed that what made the HiZ mics HiZ only was the transformer, so.....

[weedywet]

I’m for anything that makes it easier to smash a 57 to bits.

[eatsleepdrums]

Hey everyone,

I just wanted to follow up my original post with a link to my final dissertation paper.
I'm very happy to let you all know that I got a first class mark for the dissertation. Overall, I managed to pass my degree with first class honours and I have been named on the Dean's list for scoring a first class mark in all of my modules.
I've also been awarded a performance scholarship for being the first person in the history of my university to score 100% in a final performance exam. I have now been accepted to study a masters in performance and creative musicianship so I'm very excited about that.
Bob, John and William were kind enough to take the time to answer my questions in such an inspiring and informative way and it was duly noted by the examiner that the quality of all the contributions helped to elevate my work to a higher level so i'm extremely grateful.

Many thanks again guys and hopefully there's something of interest to you in this!

Cheers, Mark.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/whterfppcih7 ... NXHga?dl=0

[unitymusic]

Hey everyone,

I just wanted to follow up my original post with a link to my final dissertation paper.
I'm very happy to let you all know that I got a first class mark for the dissertation. Overall, I managed to pass my degree with first class honours and I have been named on the Dean's list for scoring a first class mark in all of my modules.
I've also been awarded a performance scholarship for being the first person in the history of my university to score 100% in a final performance exam. I have now been accepted to study a masters in performance and creative musicianship so I'm very excited about that.
Bob, John and William were kind enough to take the time to answer my questions in such an inspiring and informative way and it was duly noted by the examiner that the quality of all the contributions helped to elevate my work to a higher level so i'm extremely grateful.

Many thanks again guys and hopefully there's something of interest to you in this!

Cheers, Mark.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/whterfppcih7 ... NXHga?dl=0

Congrats! I can't look at the dissertation now, but I'm interested in checking it out soon. Good luck with your masters, I might be going back to school for one soon too :/

[endorka]

I've just come across this thread - a very interesting read indeed, and congratulations on your success of your dissertation Mark. It has inspired me to try some new approaches next drum session.

My preferred overhead mic placement thus far has been a stereo pair of small diaphragm condensers in ORTF or XY configuration, usually placed about three feet above the snare drum. Advantages are phase coherency and the ability to get the snare and kick very close to center. It gets a full it sound I like with a healthy amount of snare buzz and kick beater, and setup speed is fast when session time is limited.

I tend to place high emphasis on getting the snare and kick centred, but listening to the Joan Osborne tracks, the snare and kick are considerably off centre, in both placement and tone. The beauty of it is, these are from an album I've been listening to for years and hadn't really noticed before now. It's great the way the drums create that sense of space without unduly calling attention to themselves.

You can really hear it on the Dracula Moon track from the same album which has some exposed drums in the intro. In addition to different tone and volume of kick and snare, there's more ambience in the R than L channel. Wonderful stuff.

Next drum session, for sure I'll make time to try out these and some of the other front of kit overhead placements discussed here :-)

Cheers,
Jennifer

[weedywet]

Dracula Moon is one where it’s definitely just the 4 mics (in front left and right, snare, bass drum)

[unitymusic]

I love these types of threads. You have any more recent drum tracking stories weedy?

Also, if you were recording a grunge-ish indie/rock/punk type of band, would you still go with your 5 [4-6] mic setup, or would you opt for using more close mics on everything?

[endorka]

Thanks Weedy, that is very useful to know. I'd also be up for hearing more of your drum tracking stories! Have you done any in smaller / acoustically dryer rooms?

Cheers,
Jennifer

[Rev. Juda$ Sleaze]

He, endorka!

Nice to see another reaperite over here :)

(Judders)

[weedywet]

Interestingly, Eric Bazilian did a Swedish TV interview about One Of Us, and in it was this photo of him in the house, where you can just make out, behind him, the two STC 4038s positioned against the front wall (to the porch)and pointed at the (out of frame) drums
so you can see their height and, more or less, width between them.

[weedywet]

I love these types of threads. You have any more recent drum tracking stories weedy?

Also, if you were recording a grunge-ish indie/rock/punk type of band, would you still go with your 5 [4-6] mic setup, or would you opt for using more close mics on everything?

bass drum SM7
snare Gefell M300
two Gefell MT71s as kit left and right (positioned very similarly to the photos already shown with 67s)
two 4038s as room mics.


so 6 mics total.

[Rev. Juda$ Sleaze]

I love these types of threads. You have any more recent drum tracking stories weedy?

Also, if you were recording a grunge-ish indie/rock/punk type of band, would you still go with your 5 [4-6] mic setup, or would you opt for using more close mics on everything?

bass drum SM7
snare Gefell M300
two Gefell MT71s as kit left and right (positioned very similarly to the photos already shown with 67s)
two 4038s as room mics.


so 6 mics total.

Wow, super punchy yet spacious.

Did you mix this? Was there any additional reverb on the drums besides the room mic's?

[endorka]

He, endorka!

Nice to see another reaperite over here :)

(Judders)

Indeed so! It's a small virtual world :-)

Cheers,
Jennifer

[Rev. Juda$ Sleaze]

My hack method for recording bands live in cramped rehearsal rooms is to have over-the-drummers-shoulder pencil condensers about 6' up, at an angle so that the bass drum and snare are in the centre, about a foot or so apart on a rail and splayed between the hats and floor tom. 57 on snare top or near the side vent and a bass drum mic.

It's all I can fit in the rooms I get to work in, and it works well to minimise bleed from the PA (I keep vocals as quiet as I can, but the singer has to hear themselves and the band need the cues - I've found dynamics and energy really flatten out when the band don't have vocals to work with.

Any tips to improve that setup, where the mic's can't extend the footprint of the kit and bleed is an issue, would be gratefully received!

[weedywet]

Wow, super punchy yet spacious.

Did you mix this? Was there any additional reverb on the drums besides the room mic's?

I mixed it, thanks. I'll be honest that I don't 100% remember, but i very much doubt there's any added reverb on the drums. it's rare for me.

here's an even 'bigger' sound (which certainly has some reverb) from that same record: