When A Band's References Don't Fit...

[Rev. Juda$ Sleaze]

I recorded a friend's band before Christmas. Total clusterfuck, no setup time so there was crazy bleed to deal with from not being ale to move players around, cables everywhere in a tiny room... managed to get something kinda okay sounding out of it though and sent off my mixes.

Then it turns out that they had a completely different idea as to the sound they were after but didn't think to tell me (I guess most people think all the sound of a recording is added with plugins afterwards...). Not only would I have recorded it differently in the first place, the parts and arrangements don't fit with their reference tracks, let alone the general vibe of their music.

So, my question is how do you deal with bands who have references at odds with their own material?

[nobby]

The question makes me think you aren't charging them by the hour.

Without hearing it, the solution would seem to be to do it over from scratch.

Avoid the temptation to cut the brake lines of their van -- the police will probably be able to figure out who done it.

[nobby]

Total clusterfuck, no setup time so there was crazy bleed to deal with from not being ale to move players around, cables everywhere in a tiny room

Substitute "French mansion" for "tiny room" and I think you've described the initial recording of "Beggar's Banquet". The harried kid who ran the cables out to the mobile unit and kept having to run from room to room I think was Glyn Johns.

I was astonished how good they managed to make it sound until I discovered that they re-recorded much (most?) of it in a proper studio in L.A.

But in that case, the band had the budget to do it over until everyone was happy.

[Rev. Juda$ Sleaze]

The question makes me think you aren't charging them by the hour.

Without hearing it, the solution would seem to be to do it over from scratch.

Avoid the temptation to cut the brake lines of their van -- the police will probably be able to figure out who done it.

No, I'm not charging them, I'm friends with the bassist and just doing it for the experience.

I am starting the mixes over again, but there is just no way that their music can sound like the reference tracks they gave, even if it was recorded in a more congruous way. I'm presuming that this is a common problem with bands - that they think they are something they are not.

They're playing female singer-songwriter stuff with a kind of slight jazz-fusion kind of edge, but their reference tracks are The Byrds and 60's psychedelic rock.

[nobby]

They're playing female singer-songwriter stuff with a kind of slight jazz-fusion kind of edge, but their reference tracks are The Byrds and 60's psychedelic rock.

What's the dif?

[meloco_go]

Actually, I learned that the band's ideas as awkward as what they may seem can be "right". And also you don't have to treat references literally, what they after can be an overall vibe, not the exact sound.
It's hard to get into their heads but that's what you have to do...

[Rev. Juda$ Sleaze]

Actually, I learned that the band's ideas as awkward as what they may seem can be "right". And also you don't have to treat references literally, what they after can be an overall vibe, not the exact sound.
It's hard to get into their heads but that's what you have to do...

Yeah, that's what I've done. I just forgot that most musicians think you can stick any old mic up in the vicinity of an instrument and get whatever sound you want after the fact with plugins.

I'm also 99% sure that they don't really want their recordings to sound like their references. It's the vibe thing you mentioned.

[weedywet]

Well unless their music is based around a Rickenbacker 12 string they’re not going to sound much like The Byrds.

[Rev. Juda$ Sleaze]

Well unless their music is based around a Rickenbacker 12 string they’re not going to sound much like The Byrds.

Yep.

Everything from the composition, instrumentation, arrangement to gear is at odds with how they hear themselves.

Which is fine, I don't want to sound too much like I'm bitching (though I am bitching a bit about them giving me references after I mixed their songs, when they should have done that before I set a single mic up - I went in with a "record a rehearsal and see what you can do" kind of deal, but it turns out they had rather solid opinions about how that should turn out).

What I'm really looking for is polite ways to tell a band that their expectations don't fit reality. For instance; they want a rich vocal plate, but in their Byrds reference that only works because the guitar parts don't step on the vocal, whereas they have a soprano competing with a lot of lead guitar work. The guitarist has a ridiculous stereo guitar setup where one amp is about 3 times more dynamic than the other, but doesn't like the sound of it being compressed, whereas it would work much better if the acoustic and electric guitars played complimentary parts rather than basic arpeggios with noodling over the top, then I could do a straight LCR mix and leave lots of room for the vocal up the middle.

I'm still having fun with the project, and I would definitely record them again if we could get more ironed out beforehand, I just had a moment of frustration and wondered how other people deal with this kind of thing.

[nobby]

From the verbal description it sounds like what the band needs, and what you could provide for them, is an arranger and producer.

They seem like tree surgeons unable to get an overview of the forest who need a forest ranger to tell them to evacuate ahead of the fire.

The question is:

Would they be open minded enough, with an attitude of "this guy is willing to help us out, why don't try his suggestions out and see if what he suggests makes sense and improves things"?

As opposed to digging in, "We must resist THE MAN changing OUR SOUND

[Rev. Juda$ Sleaze]

From the verbal description it sounds like what the band needs, and what you could provide for them, is an arranger and producer.

They seem like tree surgeons unable to get an overview of the forest who need a forest ranger to tell them to evacuate ahead of the fire.

The question is:

Would they be open minded enough, with an attitude of "this guy is willing to help us out, why don't try his suggestions out and see if what he suggests makes sense and improves things"?

As opposed to digging in, "We must resist THE MAN changing OUR SOUND

Well, I know my friend, the guy playing bass, is totally open to that kind of thing. He got me in because the guitarist usually records them but he doesn't like the way he does it and finds him too closed-minded. He wanted fresh, outside ears to come in. I think the guitarist took a lot of persuading and is still resistant.

So it's an internal conflict that I don't have the energy or motivation to step into.

[DPower]

Time to bring out that old chestnut... Who is producing?

I had a similar situation a couple years back, where it was cleared up front that the band leader was producing. I was just the engineer. When it came to mix time, he gave me a nine inch nails track as a mix reference for one of the songs. Needles to say, the piccolo snare was duly sample replaced.

[weedywet]

Looking at it another way:

Is it a major label release?
Will they have millions of disappointed fans if this record is screwed ip?

Let them have their clashing reverb or whatever they want.
And they will either like it or they’ll think it sounds bad and you can explain WHY

[Rev. Juda$ Sleaze]

Yeah, it's not as if anyone's careers are on the line here.

I am doing what they want, and trying my best to filter that into something listenable...