WTF now?

[John Eppstein]

Right wing Democrats don’t fall into line the way all republiklans do.

So an imaginary ‘super majority’ that includes right wing democrats doesn’t in any way guarantee that they VOTE “like Democrats”.

But wouldn't you rather have that than actual Republicans?

You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometime you just might find you get what you need.

(I think some British guy said that.)

[John Eppstein]

What needs to be let go of is just being lazy and handing campaign messaging and communication over to the personalities we like. Both Sanders and Clinton came across as the upper middle class guilt tripping the rest of the middle class about various characterizations of "helping the poor."

Guess what, "the poor" vote too and as far as most could see the Washington Ivy League Democrats don't really get their plight so they threw a temper tantrum. People voted for CryBaby Donnie the used car salesman in order to shake things up. It didn't need to come to this but that's squarely on you and me for nodding our heads at whichever talking points we liked the sound of instead of coming up with concrete examples of what can be done for rural and rust belt America.

Case in point: Social Security and Medicare are all about protecting children from having to support their elderly parents which would literally throw the American economy into a tailspin. That's the issue impacting most Americans but we're still hearing about "impoverished seniors."

Hear! Hear!

[Bob Olhsson]

The loudmouths aren't real Evangelicals. They are the folks who set up private "church" schools to send white kids to after desegregation was mandated.

[nobby]

Again, you're making the erroneous assumption that you're dealing with a monolithic bloc.

It's really easy to make a minority look like a majority on TV. Rump does it at every rally.

You are making the erroneous assumption that I'm making an erroneous assumption.

The Republican party is shrinking, and Trump is the main cause.

That said, I was a bit surprised to read recently that 89% of Republicans still support Trump. That would tend to repudiate most of your blather. And I have better things to do today than spend hours refuting your nonsense point by point, so that will have to do for now.

[nobby]

But wouldn't you rather have that than actual Republicans?

"Wouldn't you prefer a pistol to a handgun?"

[weedywet]

It’s in the nature of, and psychological make up of, “conservatives” to just fall into line and go along.

[John Eppstein]

Again, you're making the erroneous assumption that you're dealing with a monolithic bloc.

It's really easy to make a minority look like a majority on TV. Rump does it at every rally.

You are making the erroneous assumption that I'm making an erroneous assumption.

The Republican party is shrinking, and Trump is the main cause.

That said, I was a bit surprised to read recently that 89% of Republicans still support Trump. That would tend to repudiate most of your blather. And I have better things to do today than spend hours refuting your nonsense point by point, so that will have to do for now.

Actually, it doesn't. Think about what you just said - The Republican Party is shedding members like a Saint Bernard in the heat of summer.

What that means is that the only ones left at this point are pretty much Trumpies with about 11% of old hangers on who just can't bring themselves to change party registration.

That leaves an awful lot of voters out there that repudiate Trump and his bigotry and greed but are still not what you'd call "liberals" or "progressives".

THOSE are the voters that we need to court in order to be able to actually win the next election. Not all of them, of course, but a sizeable enough chunk to be able to carry the Senate and elect a president. And you don't do that by coming off as wild-eyed extremists.

[John Eppstein]

It’s in the nature of, and psychological make up of, “conservatives” to just fall into line and go along.

Sadly, you can say the same of most people regardless of orientation.

[Bob Olhsson]

One consequence will be the new Democrats shifting the party farther to the right.

[weedywet]

The new crop of Democratic Congress people are amongst the most “left” leaning we’ve seen in 60 years.
I have some hope.

If I’m the other hand, the party leadership swerves right to pander to imaginary ‘swing’ Trump voters, they’re doomed to fail.

If there is ever a time to pull hard to the left this is it.

[weedywet]

Sadly, you can say the same of most people regardless of orientation.

That’s just not true.
Which explains all the talk of ‘dissension on the left’

[John Eppstein]

One consequence will be the new Democrats shifting the party farther to the right.

Really? I don't see that at all.

How much farther to the right can they go that Feinstein with her unwavering support for Big Business, Wall Street, , and the Real Estate brokers and developers? When you look at the core ideals of the traditional American right Feinstein tags almost all the bases - and the only reason she supports the humanitarian issues is that she's based in San Francisco and simply couldn't get elected if she didn't. None of that is really part of the lifestyle and social milieu she moves in - she hates popular music and any art that isn't 100 years old.

[John Eppstein]

The new crop of Democratic Congress people are amongst the most “left” leaning we’ve seen in 60 years.
I have some hope.

If I’m the other hand, the party leadership swerves right to pander to imaginary ‘swing’ Trump voters, they’re doomed to fail.

If there is ever a time to pull hard to the left this is it.

The typical strategic mistake made by the Democratic Party is that they get a little bump when the Right gets taken over by a bunch of outright gangsters who royally screw up - like Watergate - and assume they've won. They then go into celebration mode and proceed to fragment into a bunch of splinter groups while the Right wing plots strategy, regroups, and comes roaring back to victory within a couple of election cycles, making things worse than they were before - because they PLAN and they STRATEGIZE.

Now is not a time to "pull harder to the left" - and fragment, which is the usual modus operandi, it is the time to CONSOLIDATE GAINS and to see about taking control of the rest of the government - which is going to be a hell of a job considering the current depth of right wing subversion.

Already we have Ocasia-Cortez - who I happen to support fairly strongly on a theoretical basis - indulging in incredibly stupid strategic blunders that are making her a laughingstock before she even takes office! This is not how you get the trust and support nof the general populace. It's rather disappointing, really. One hoped she would behave in a more statesmanlike manner, once elected.

[John Eppstein]

The new crop of Democratic Congress people are amongst the most “left” leaning we’ve seen in 60 years.
I have some hope.

If I’m the other hand, the party leadership swerves right to pander to imaginary ‘swing’ Trump voters, they’re doomed to fail.

If there is ever a time to pull hard to the left this is it.

The typical strategic mistake made by the Democratic Party is that they get a little bump when the Right gets taken over by a bunch of outright gangsters who royally screw up - like Watergate - and assume they've won. They then go into celebration mode and proceed to fragment into a bunch of splinter groups while the Right wing plots strategy, regroups, and comes roaring back to victory within a couple of election cycles, making things worse than they were before - because they PLAN and they STRATEGIZE.

Now is not a time to "pull harder to the left" - and fragment, which is the usual modus operandi, it is the time to CONSOLIDATE GAINS and to see about taking control of the rest of the government - which is going to be a hell of a job considering the current depth of right wing subversion.

Already we have Ocasia-Cortez - who I happen to support fairly strongly on a theoretical basis - indulging in incredibly stupid strategic blunders that are making her a laughingstock before she even takes office! This is not how you get the trust and support nof the general populace. It's rather disappointing, really. One hoped she would behave in a more statesmanlike manner, once elected.

Understand, I'm not advocating "swinging to the right" to pander to anybody. I'm simply advocating behaving like adults and using our brains for something other than hat racks for a change.

[John Eppstein]

Sadly, you can say the same of most people regardless of orientation.

That’s just not true.
Which explains all the talk of ‘dissension on the left’

Not really. The problem is that the American "left" has no core platform - they're all a bunch of loose planks floating down the river and have been since the end of the Vietnam War and the demise of Nixon.

They're all firmly in line - with their own insular "realities".

It's not dissension - it's disorganization, plus a lack of ability to strategize. Even Hillary Clinton, who, given her extensive experience in Washington, is horrible at strategy.

In politics, a great deal of strategy is simply knowing when to keep your mouth shut.

[Bob Olhsson]

What I mean by "new Democrats" are disgusted former Republicans running for office as Democrats.

[John Eppstein]

...

[John Eppstein]

What I mean by "new Democrats" are disgusted former Republicans running for office as Democrats.

Well, I doubt they're fooling anybody.

Actually, I think most of those ex-Republicans are identifying as "independents" now.

Historically there were two distinct wings of the Democratic Party, Northern and Southern. The primary dividing issue was, of course, race. With the changes in the ethnic balance in the Southern states over the last few decades that's likely to not be quite such a factor anymore.

What could be interesting would be if the disgruntled ex-Republicans formed their own party. That could help the Democrats, as the right wing vote would be split. In recent years it's been the Democratic vote that has suffered from splinter "spoiler" parties, would be nice to give the Right a taste of their own medicine.