Hired guns

[Saxplayerz]

how does it work with session musicians who get hired to come to a studio to play? Say the producer/whoever doesn't like your tone, or what you are playing. Do they send you home w/o a paycheck?

[weedywet]

no, it's up to the producer to know about whom he/she is hiring.

if they show up, they get paid for the 3 hr session.

[Saxplayerz]

no, it's up to the producer to know about whom he/she is hiring.

if they show up, they get paid for the 3 hr session.

Thanks weedy

[nobby]

no, it's up to the producer to know about whom he/she is hiring.

Not sure I understand that as written.

Who is responsible for hiring session players? How is the flavor a session player brings to the session not part of the production?

[weedywet]

what was unclear?

I mean that before I pick up the phone and hire Anton Fig, it's up to ME, as the producer, to KNOW that Anton is capable and the right call for my particular session.

If it turns out that he doesn't work out, that's my risk, not his.
He still gets paid for turning up.

[nobby]

I must have read it wrong, because I distinctly read "isn't" or "not" up to the producer.

What's scary is that I read it at least twice, carefully

Perhaps I've lost my last marble

need more coffee...

[upstairs]

Okay, I get the point, but say you just bought a McMansion and you want a real sculpture in your pretend roundabout. The sculptor guy shows up and does his job, and shit, it looks JUST like Adonis except with down syndrome and a trumpet out the wazoo like in the old Monty Python cartoons.

You know, like, what do you do?

[Tim Halligan]

You know, like, what do you do?

You made the wrong choice.

Suck it up.

Pay the guy for his time...then call the right guy...and then pay him.

Assuming we're still talking about hiring session musicians as opposed to actual sculptors...

Cheers,
Tim

[nobby]

I don't know if that's a workable analogy.

I don't think a sculptor would be able to make that sculpture and tear it down if it didn't pass muster, half a dozen times or so in 3 hours.

Ideally, the session player would be a known quantity, as opposed to a pig in the poke.

But in the worst case, writing off a single 3 hour session shouldn't be a big deal in the scheme of things.

[upstairs]

Oh no, I agree. Pay him and sell the work of ...fart to a modern art museum.

But in the worst case, writing off a single 3 hour session shouldn't be a big deal in the scheme of things.

In the scheme of things carving out 5k from the guitars "to make room for the vocals" doesn't make ones totally unworkable sounds any better.

But yeah, I've had a few and feel like making grand generalizations - but I think a deeper point of wisdom here is that, in the scheme of things, making a record is a big fucking deal. If you don't have the luxury of worrying about the scheme of things, you're already screwed. Pick the right guy if you care - if you care and you made a bad decision, well, that's your fault. Duh

I'm sure I'm not making any sense at this point.

[Bob Olhsson]

A great producer is also agile and collaborates with the performers. The results can often vastly exceed the producer's original concept. I think too much contemporary popular music is over-thunk compared to the past. Happy accidents make music vibrant.

[nobby]

I think a deeper point of wisdom here is that, in the scheme of things, making a record is a big fucking deal.

If you take it seriously and your idea of your record isn't spending 10 minutes layering a few loops on garage band it is; everything is relative.

If you don't have the luxury of worrying about the scheme of things, you're already screwed.

When we recorded "Magic" (from the "post your music" forum) I paid for the session and the "hired gun" from money I saved while working as a welder in a factory. 'luxury' is not the first word that would spring to mind.

Back then, there was no internet, as far as civilians knew. You could cough up the big bucks if you wanted to hire a known musician who had worked on hit records, otherwise, what you had to go on was recommendations, which is what I did. The recommendation came from the engineer, who himself was recommended by an acquaintance who had some success in the business (he had toured in Billy Joel's band).

The 'hired gun' turned out to be Annie Oakley

I looked up what union scale was and paid her that (I don't think she was in the union) and at the end of the 4 hours of lead vocals, harmonies, background vox and a rough mix, I was so blown away that I gave her a hundred dollar tip, which was a lot of money back then (I think union scale was $30/ hr but I can't remember exactly). She had obviously listened to my rough mix with scratch vocal very carefully and crafted her own vocal arrangement

Now, with hosting sites, youtube, etc., there's no "mystery meat"

So, before hiring Saxplayerz, or whomever, I would be able to check out his playing. If I didn't think he was good enough, or if his style of playing didn't fit with what I was trying to accomplish, I wouldn't hire him in the first place.

When you hire musicians, they tend to give it their all because their reputations as musicians is their stock-in-trade and they want to get more work. If you renege and don't pay them, your
reputation suffers, word gets out, and you have trouble getting good people to work with you, as a certain head of state is currently finding out in his quest for top notch legal help.

My way of doing things is: If I hire a musician I pay union scale or I don't hire the musician.

If I get someone to play a part for "free" through the art of persuasion (or threats or blackmail ) it's not really free, hence the scare quotes.

What's unspoken is that it's potentially a quid pro quo, that is, they can expect me to play a part on their record without charging them for the session -- and they get artist royalties if and when the record makes money, as well as a credit on the record

The main problem with this method is that, with no money exchanging hands, depending on the musician(s) involved and their level of interest and other priorities, it can take a while for them to turn their part(s) in. If they ever do.

When I got Peter Green (tptman from the Womb) to play a flugelhorn solo on one of my songs, for example, just as I was about to ask him to do it, his wife gave birth. D'OH! So I waited a couple of months to ask, and he turned in an absolutely stellar solo, but it took him over a year to turn it in (He works full time, has a part time job playing in a Salsa band, and 3 other kids).

In this case, if I needed it in a more timely manner, I would have had to pay someone. In other cases, musicians have turned in "free" tracks in a week or two. It depends upon whom you're dealing with.

The fall back position if there isn't the money or time for the above is, of course, loops and synths and playing the parts yourself (oh my!)

[nobby]

A great producer is also agile and collaborates with the performers. The results can often vastly exceed the producer's original concept. I think too much contemporary popular music is over-thunk compared to the past. Happy accidents make music vibrant.

Excellent points!

[nobby]

An amusing and/or horrifying anecdote, depending on your POV:

Many years ago I was taking classes in audio recording in a nice, medium sized studio under a night club on Long Island.

There was a deal in which a person could get their music recorded there for free, with the caveat being that it would be done by students out to get experience as opposed to professionals.

A guy recorded his song. He had, I think, a 4 piece band with background singers.

The icing on the cake, he hired Jim Price of Rolling Stones, Joe Cocker, etc. fame to play trumpet. I remember him bringing in 6 packs of Tuborg beer (it was a lot better back then, I think). Presumably to keep his lips wet

After the point that the record was going into the mix phase, I came to class one day and everyone was in a somber mood.

It turned out that someone (from the other class, to my relief) had completely erased or recorded over (same outcome) the 24 track. Price was still paid (pun not unintended) even though his work had been deleted.

Reference the "fast/good/cheap" chart above.

[nobby]

.

[weedywet]

THAT level of unsupervised student recording seems awfully like malpractice on the part of the supposed “faculty”

[nobby]

I don't recall hearing about any legal action taken, but it's possible there was.

Maybe the studio was protected by fine print?

Some time later, the nightclub and studio burned down, but that was probably a coincidence.

[unitymusic]

I don't recall hearing about any legal action taken, but it's possible there was.

Maybe the studio was protected by fine print?

Some time later, the nightclub and studio burned down, but that was probably a coincidence.

I went to a school that offered a similar sort of deal, and it was basically that you got to come into the studio for free, and they actually payed you a small fee for the day, for lunch/your time, etc..

You were allowed to use the recordings in any way you wanted to, but there was no guarantee of getting a usable recording, since the whole point was for the students to practice.

It is pretty irresponsible to even allow students the opportunity to erase whole multi-tracks, but when I went to school most bands who were serious brought their own external hard drives and backed them up at the end of the day, just in case. One band I know recorded half their second album that way, then finished it at one of my instructors home studio.

I really don't see how a school/studio could be legally liable for losing a recording that they essentially funded. The person who hired a "name" session musician however, should have probably just bought some studio time rather than trying to do that in the free time, which was more for the students than the artist/band.

[nobby]

when I went to school most bands who were serious brought their own external hard drives and backed them up at the end of the day, just in case.

That was not possible, back in the day.

[weedywet]

Yes. We brought our own parchment scrolls.

[nobby]

Yes. We brought our own parchment scrolls.

That came later. We started out recording with chisel and stone.

Editing was a bitch.