Fundamentals/ golden nuggets

[nobby]

Over the years of reading audio threads, there are a few ideas that have made a huge difference in the quality on my mixes.

I'm going to mention a couple I use all the time to get the ball rolling.

LCR panning

We had a huge thread on this. But basically, by panning LCR, with the notable exception of panning things where they go in a stereo field to supplement a stereo track, that totally cleaned up my mixes and saves time as well since you aren't splitting hairs.

Remarkably, there was no mention of this for the first several years I followed recording websites, starting in the dialup days (I had gone to school for recording but there wasn't enough time to go into mixing.) But there were people telling you to pan this at 1:00 o'clock and that at 10:00 o'clock. And there still are.

Another thing is to check in mono. Turn one speaker off so you don't get any timing issues.

I had a track in which I flipped the phase of one of the stereo overheads or room mics and the whole drum sound got bigger and beefier. Then I checked it in mono and the drums all but disappeared. What the hell happened?

[DPower]

I had a track in which I flipped the phase of one of the stereo overheads or room mics and the whole drum sound got bigger and beefier. Then I checked it in mono and the drums all but disappeared. What the hell happened?

Polarity, you flipped the polarity... In order to check for phase issues.

Sorry, that still drives me nuts.

Otherwise spot on.

Not just drums. Anytime you have more than 1 open mic in a room, you should check. You can't completely avoid phase based cancellations and boosts, but you can make them work to your advantage (Think of them as acoustic EQ) rather than against you.

Bass amp in the room with drums is a classic example.

[nobby]

These are tracks that have already been recorded and can't be re-recorded. So I can't move the mics around. There is software that lets you change the "placement" of mics through timing changes, but that is said to open up a rabbit hole into a quagmire.

[upstairs]

LCR is great. I did that naturally, because I listened to a lot of the stereo Beatles mixes with drums on one side, etc...and thought it sounded pretty good at the time...but got sucked into "creating a stereo field" for a while by what the internet told me. The idea sure sounds moist pro! (was that the term?)

I do like the halfway positions though, just to get a little bit more out of the other speaker without sitting center.

[nobby]

I do like the halfway positions though, just to get a little bit more out of the other speaker without sitting center.

I have avoided that and found that having an instrument hard panned gives a lot of space for fx like delay or stereo reverb or bleed in the case of live recording to work.

I was surprised to hear stereo mixes of popular songs, very good mixes, in which the guitar was hard panned to one side and if you turned that side down there was no hint of guitar in the song

This was after the early daze when you had drums hard panned, which was offset by percussive elements in the opposite channel from, say congas or piano.

Some of the early stereo mixing was fairly primitive. I was surprised to hear a James Brown record in which the instrumental was panned hard left and the vocals hard right. It was educational, though, in the sense that you could isolate the "stems" and hear the vocals a cappella so you could hear the BGV clearly and you could hear the instrumental arrangement clearly as well.

In a typical Pop/ Rock mix you wind up with a lot of stuff typically panned center -- kick drum, snare, bass guitar, lead vocal, so the center is pretty well occupied.

[meloco_go]

I have avoided that and found that having an instrument hard panned gives a lot of space for fx like delay or stereo reverb or bleed in the case of live recording to work.

I was surprised to hear stereo mixes of popular songs, very good mixes, in which the guitar was hard panned to one side and if you turned that side down there was no hint of guitar in the song

This was after the early daze when you had drums hard panned, which was offset by percussive elements in the opposite channel from, say congas or piano.

Some of the early stereo mixing was fairly primitive. I was surprised to hear a James Brown record in which the instrumental was panned hard left and the vocals hard right. It was educational, though, in the sense that you could isolate the "stems" and hear the vocals a cappella so you could hear the BGV clearly and you could hear the instrumental arrangement clearly as well.

In a typical Pop/ Rock mix you wind up with a lot of stuff typically panned center -- kick drum, snare, bass guitar, lead vocal, so the center is pretty well occupied.

Usually most of the things I pan LCR, though not without exceptions. I find that sometimes OHs sound more natural if I pan them inward slightly. I think ideally this should be done by microphone placement, but I rarely have control over recording.
And I pan toms in such way that they generally follows the image in the overheads.
Also, if there's "rogue" part in the arrangement, i.e. an odd solo, a single back-vocal which does kind of "call and response" thing with the main vocal, I would tend to find some place off-center.
Mostly I just go with the flow and not overthink it.
I also find that some instruments, especially guitar with an overdrive, when placed in the center, sound kind of "bald". A bit of chorus or even stereo EQ with slightly mismatched curves left to right help a lot.

[John Eppstein]

I have avoided that and found that having an instrument hard panned gives a lot of space for fx like delay or stereo reverb or bleed in the case of live recording to work.

I was surprised to hear stereo mixes of popular songs, very good mixes, in which the guitar was hard panned to one side and if you turned that side down there was no hint of guitar in the song

This was after the early daze when you had drums hard panned, which was offset by percussive elements in the opposite channel from, say congas or piano.

Some of the early stereo mixing was fairly primitive. I was surprised to hear a James Brown record in which the instrumental was panned hard left and the vocals hard right. It was educational, though, in the sense that you could isolate the "stems" and hear the vocals a cappella so you could hear the BGV clearly and you could hear the instrumental arrangement clearly as well.

In a typical Pop/ Rock mix you wind up with a lot of stuff typically panned center -- kick drum, snare, bass guitar, lead vocal, so the center is pretty well occupied.

Usually most of the things I pan LCR, though not without exceptions. I find that sometimes OHs sound more natural if I pan them inward slightly. I think ideally this should be done by microphone placement, but I rarely have control over recording.
And I pan toms in such way that they generally follows the image in the overheads.
Also, if there's "rogue" part in the arrangement, i.e. an odd solo, a single back-vocal which does kind of "call and response" thing with the main vocal, I would tend to find some place off-center.
Mostly I just go with the flow and not overthink it.
I also find that some instruments, especially guitar with an overdrive, when placed in the center, sound kind of "bald". A bit of chorus or even stereo EQ with slightly mismatched curves left to right help a lot.

I never use overheads anymore - or close tom mics, either. Since going over to essentially a Weedy Wet 4 mic plus room setup I've found that things are a lot easier and much more natural sounding. I mic the snare from the side about an inch or two offset from the sound hole, half way between top and bottom heads and use the lovely off-axis pickup of the KM84 to get just the right amount of hat. Drums are usually mixed the way people really hear 'em - mono in the middle.

The only time I close mic toms is for live sound gigs because otherwise you usually get more guitars and monitors than drums. Still no overheads - don't need extra horrible, off axis guitar mics. Occasionally I might use a hat mic for live sound, it depends.

[DPower]

I never use overheads anymore - or close tom mics, either. Since going over to essentially a Weedy Wet 4 mic plus room setup I've found that things are a lot easier and much more natural sounding. I mic the snare from the side about an inch or two offset from the sound hole, half way between top and bottom heads and use the lovely off-axis pickup of the KM84 to get just the right amount of hat. Drums are usually mixed the way people really hear 'em - mono in the middle.

The only time I close mic toms is for live sound gigs because otherwise you usually get more guitars and monitors than drums. Still no overheads - don't need extra horrible, off axis guitar mics. Occasionally I might use a hat mic for live sound, it depends.

I rarely close mic toms, as the overheads, in the quasi Glynn John's I use, capture enough. Coles 4038 a meter out in front of the kit peeking over the rack toms at the snare is my primary capture, to which the other mics are supplementary. All close mics and the FOK mic are panned up the middle. 2 room mics provide the stereo spread. Live is pretty much the same setup minus the Coles (First off, it's delicate, second, there's usually a singer standing where I need to put the stand. ;) ), and rooms (that's what vocal mics are for, no?). As I use my KM84s for OH (Glynn Johns), the off axis sound is fine. Never have I needed a hat mic.

[tylodawg]

Sometimes he hardest part of doing an LCR mix is convincing the artist/client that it's the way to go. If I am mixing the project, I often say from the second we set up the first mic "this is how these will be panned/etc etc", to get us ready, get that mindset stuck in there. I hate the "let's set this 10% left, this 25% right" conversation.
I had one person submit a suggestion list with panning positions, like "Tambourine 9:45, Left rack Tom 3:30" I also get "but what about if someone's speaker is out, and they only have one channel". I say "then they need to buy a replacement speaker." I mean, really, THAT'S who you want to target with the mix? Ugh.
Being another proponent of the "Glyn/Weedy/whatever the kids call it when you use 2 LDCs/kick/snare/room5 mics on a kit" style, I do sometimes bring the L and R mics in a bit. (I read that Glyn would actually bring them in unevenly, the L being almost centered or something). But it is nice not to have to hear sentences like "can we pan the left rack tom mic 5 percent more to the left". We have 3 centered, one L, one R. Done. Saves annoying conversations and pointless decisions later on. The fact that I like how it sounds better is icing.

[nobby]

Sometimes he hardest part of doing an LCR mix is convincing the artist/client that it's the way to go. If I am mixing the project, I often say from the second we set up the first mic "this is how these will be panned/etc etc", to get us ready, get that mindset stuck in there. I hate the "let's set this 10% left, this 25% right" conversation.
I had one person submit a suggestion list with panning positions, like "Tambourine 9:45, Left rack Tom 3:30" I also get "but what about if someone's speaker is out, and they only have one channel". I say "then they need to buy a replacement speaker." I mean, really, THAT'S who you want to target with the mix? Ugh.

When we discussed this years ago I listened to some tracks that sounded great and were hit records to boot, and was a bit surprised that the only rhythm guitar was hard panned, not in the other speaker at all.

So, yeah, dude, fix that stereo

Being another proponent of the "Glyn/Weedy/whatever the kids call it when you use 2 LDCs/kick/snare/room5 mics on a kit" style, I do sometimes bring the L and R mics in a bit. (I read that Glyn would actually bring them in unevenly, the L being almost centered or something).

I got the impression that with those types of setups there'd be an attempt to more or less center the snare within the stereo image.

[Nobtwiddler]

Sometime back in the early 80's I figured out that using more then 1 mic on anything could & did cause phase issues.
As it was normal operating procedure to multi mic everything as requested by most of the engineers & producers at the time.

After that, I rarely if ever, use more then 1 mic on anything, except for a drum kit, where I usually require 4.

[upstairs]

After that, I rarely if ever, use more then 1 mic on anything, except for a drum kit, where I usually require 4.

Kick, snare, overheads?

I like what I think Bob O said about keeping drums mostly mono - better punch. Stereo can get mushy if you're taking most of your signal from the overheads. At least it has for me.

[nobby]

There's an article out there... I wish I had the URL because the author has more experience than I do and makes a detailed and eloquent case for checking in mono.

But one suggestion he makes is to check in mono from the beginning. It makes it easier and faster to get the general balance of the parts happening to begin with. I plan to go with this strategy for any new mixes.

Checking in mono with a mix that sounds okay but not great also reveals interesting things. I originally thought of checking in mono mostly in terms of seeing what might cancel out due to phase issues, but found other things it worked for.

For example, I had been hard panning a couple of guitars and sending reverb to the opposite side. Sounded okay to me but the overall mix was lacking.

Checking in mono, there was too much reverb, so I dialed it back.

Back in stereo, it was like a blanket was removed from the mix; things were clearer and more defined.

Sometimes when I check in mono the mix sounds punchier. My guess, and that's all it is, is that maybe some of the hard panned guitars cancelled out and made them a little less prominent in the mix. Add that to the fact that everything is hitting a 2 bus compressor and the drums and bass guitar got bigger overall.

I've found myself mixing in mono after forgetting that I just wanted to check it in mono... I had temporarily forgot that I was listening in mono until I noticed nothing is coming out of the left monitor! (I'm often listening from a distance, not just sitting 3 feet from the monitors)

Of course, much of the mix is in mono anyway. Lead vocals, kick, snare, bass guitar and sometimes guitar solo are all panned center. regardless.

When I went back to stereo it sounded more mono even though some things were clearly hard panned, but it sounded way more professional... like an actual record! -- because levels that were difficult or even impossible for me to balance before were now easier or doable.

[tylodawg]

There's an article out there... I wish I had the URL because the author has more experience than I do and makes a detailed and eloquent case for checking in mono.

But one suggestion he makes is to check in mono from the beginning. It makes it easier and faster to get the general balance of the parts happening to begin with. I plan to go with this strategy for any new mixes.

Checking in mono with a mix that sounds okay but not great also reveals interesting things. I originally thought of checking in mono mostly in terms of seeing what might cancel out due to phase issues, but found other things it worked for.
[snip]

When I went back to stereo it sounded more mono even though some things were clearly hard panned, but it sounded way more professional... like an actual record! -- because levels that were difficult or even impossible for me to balance before were now easier or doable.

Absolutely. Saves so much time, and the final product is so much stronger. Mix in mono, get it sounding good - (print that! I mean save that, but 'print that' sounds cooler). Then do any panning and small tweaks. If it's a simple arrangement, I often won't pan at all until I'm fairly far along with the mix. Like you said it's often only a few things. I generally know where things are gonna go, being an LCR guy, it's not a huge thing. With more layered arrangements, I may start putting the glockenspiel and hurdy gurdy off to the sides earlier than a simple mix.
I'd love to put out full mono mixes, but that is a tough sell to clients in today's world, and I get it.
One day, when someone says they want it to sound like a Beatles record, I'm gonna pan the drums off to one side and the vocals to the other, just to see what they say. (of course the mixes they actually worried about and supervised were the mono ones, but that's another thread)

[nobby]

[upstairs]

One day, when someone says they want it to sound like a Beatles record, I'm gonna pan the drums off to one side and the vocals to the other, just to see what they say. (of course the mixes they actually worried about and supervised were the mono ones, but that's another thread)

To me the stereo mixes are fantastic for listening on headphones. Psychedelic, man.

[keks]

Today I stumbled over this gem in a discussion about how to make fuzz pedals work in a band:

It is called an arrangement for a reason.

[John Eppstein]

After that, I rarely if ever, use more then 1 mic on anything, except for a drum kit, where I usually require 4.

Kick, snare, overheads?

Weedy's approach. Kick, snare, front of kit, (FT) side of kit. Room mics if needed.

There was an extensive thread about it on The Womb, with photos. Maybe Weedy would be so kind as to repost it here?

[nobby]

I could be wrong, but I thought Weedy's 4 mike setup was kick, snare, overhead and floor tom side.

[Bob Olhsson]

It is front of kit. I was stunned the first time I tried it. I later learned that it had been SOP in Muscle Shoals.

[John Eppstein]

I could be wrong, but I thought Weedy's 4 mike setup was kick, snare, overhead and floor tom side.

Front of kit with the capsule of the mic only a little bit higher than the front of the rack toms rim(s). Maybe 3 or 4 inches, give or take a bit, maybe a foot to foot and a half out in front of the toms. Approximately. Front and side mics should be about equidistant from the snare, but Weedy says it doesn't need to be exact.

Wish we had access to his photos here.

[nobby]

Kenny Gioia regularly posts tips on his Facebook page. If I see one that I've forgotten about, never tried or never heard of, I copy and paste it to my audio notes because Facebook, particularly in the case of busy posters like Kenny, is such a clusterfuck that finding them later is impossible.

Adding distortion to bass guitar

I don't know if this is fairly common knowledge or not but if I can't recall hearing it before from someone whose expertise I respect.

Sometimes the bass guitar works great with no modification.

But sometimes, in a fairly dense mix, I've found myself adding half a dB to make the bass more audible, then listening later and thinking it's too loud in the mix and lowering it half a dB, rinse and repeat. That's when this helps in a big way. This is after not being unable to get there with EQ and compression.

Sometimes a really distorted, not to say farty, bass sound totally works for the track. That's not what this is about.

There are probably a lot of ways to do this but since I'm working in a DAW, I clone the bass track, add the distortion via plugin, then feather the distorted track in a little bit.

Thoughts?

[meloco_go]

Thoughts?

Doing that quite often.

Also, there's old (15 years+ probably?) VST called Rednef Twin that just works on DI bass like (only 32bit though). Maybe not the best model of an original amp on the market ATM, but growls and yawls like nothing else.

And another thing, I almost ditched using compression on bass. It takes a bit of time to fiddle with the automation to get all the notes to be audible (much less time and effort than I thought before starting doing it, though) but it's much easier to get the bass to drive the song properly this way IMO.

[nobby]

And another thing, I almost ditched using compression on bass. It takes a bit of time to fiddle with the automation to get all the notes to be audible (much less time and effort than I thought before starting doing it, though) but it's much easier to get the bass to drive the song properly this way IMO.

Copying to my notebook

I found a link to the original article:

https://blog.groove3.com/articles/distort-that-bass

[Cirrus]

It is front of kit. I was stunned the first time I tried it. I later learned that it had been SOP in Muscle Shoals.

Yeah, I think one of the strengths of doing it that way (besides the way it *sounds like the drum kit*!) is that you end up with each mic looking past the rack and floor tom respectively towards the snare, gives each tom a little more authority in the resulting capture and they quite often need that. And you've got a close mic on the snare anyway, so if the sound leans a bit tom-ward, it's no prob!

Plus, both mics end up seeing their respective tom and the snare from a similar angle - I tend to find if one mic is over the drum and another is at the side, the drum radiates different harmonics toward each one and the sound's a bit disconnected as a result.

Adding distortion to bass guitar

Thoughts?

Ooooh yes.

I tend to produce alt rock, so obvious distortion on the bass is pretty common for me, but even for "clean" bass, I'll always find some way to introduce some distortion - either some parallel processing with something like Klanghelm's SDRR plugin, or while recording through choice of amp, cab, etc. I think it comes down to the way that bass, while it has a lot of responsibility to carry the weight of the low end, still needs to be a midrange instrument and sit comfortably 250hz-3k alongside the other mix elements. The midrange voicing gives the bass its character, let alone the ability to be heard on systems that don't reproduce bass very well. And if you're playing it totally clean, it might not have very much in that range at all.